Part Two of my conversation with Henry Sutton and Alexandra Pringle.
If you missed the first part, you can find it here
For those of you not in the know of the going ons of the publishing world, especially outside the US, Alexandra Pringle, is the former publisher of Bloomsbury UK and an icon in the publishing world and Henry Sutton —a writer of multiple genres, and director of its Creative Writing MA program (and, coincidentally, was represented by Alexandra way back when she was a literary agent).
This was by far the most interesting conversation for me— witih Alexandra’s opinion that the problem with the decline in reading isn’t to do with the writers but in fact with the publishers.
And with Henry Sutton completely demolishing our traditional notion of plot and character.
We discussed the problem with publishing, big presses vs. small presses, social media, the MFA and everything else that has always puzzled us about what the hell is going on in the publishing world.
This interview is broken down into two posts. This is post ONE.
Post TWO will be sent out in a few days, after you’ve had time to digest this one.
Note: Alexandra runs a fantastic writing program in Morocco, which you will hear about right in the beginning of our conversation, and for those of you who are interested, I would highly recommend it.
Also, Henry Sutton is possibly the most fantastic writing teacher I’ve had, and I’ve had quite a lot of them back in New York before I studied under him in University of East Anglia about fifteen years ago. (There is also a separate interview just with Henry, which I will post next but sadly I botched the recording and can only offer you half of it)
So for those of you who are still deliberating about the MFA, having gone to the best in New York and the best in UK, I would pick to study with him again, any day.
A must listen not just for all in the writing industry but even for those who are just simply readers.
TRANSCRIPT
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people I trust have read it and have said so but it’s out in submission it’s been
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out in submission for ages and it’s not getting anywhere at the moment and two
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people just didn’t read it because they didn’t the worst thing really was someone
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said and a well-known editor someone I respect and a good imprint said you know you
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know I can’t I’ve known Henry Sutton’s work for a long while I’ve known about him I
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can’t reinvent him
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And they didn’t even read it.
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That’s stupid.
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And you just think, you know, I sort of get it, but don’t.
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I don’t.
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I don’t get it at all.
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And just go from there.
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I don’t want to be reinvented.
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You know,
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the editor would go to a meeting and people would say,
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the track record is this,
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what’s it?
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Yeah.
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In some ways, the whole thing about mid-career.
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Like, I took on after Razak Garner in mid-career.
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And he’d been turned down by where he was before and so on.
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And, you know, the first two books, I was really pleased with how they did.
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And then there was a dip.
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But I just, like, plodded on and plodded on, you know.
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And then he won the fucking Nobel Prize just for his leave industry, you know.
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Yeah.
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And I was heartbroken with what happened with the novel that came out just before
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that,
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because I was actually sure it would get on the book a list and it didn’t get on
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the long list.
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I was heartbroken.
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But then, you know, but that’s the thing is that it.
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you were allowed to just keep plodding on with an author,
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hoping for the best,
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or take someone on,
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and you knew it wasn’t going to be easy.
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But because of the power shift, it’s really hard.
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I think editors have a very hard time.
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I think that’s what’s changed, is that
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Editors like you, like my sister, invested in writers.
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So maybe their first book wouldn’t have been great,
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but they sort of preempted the fact that this question...
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It was book number five or something,
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which changed everything.
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The first three, four were very, very quiet publications.
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And she knows perfectly well that in a lot of publishing companies,
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she would have been dropped after book two or three.
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But you have to have faith,
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you know,
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and you have to be allowed to,
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but there isn’t enough respect for,
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you know,
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an editor’s judgment.
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And a lot of them lack it now because they’re looking too much away.
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They’re not thinking, what do I feel about this book?
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They’re thinking, what will other people?
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They’ll say, well, this is the market.
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It only comes from you, you know, and your response to a book.
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And then thinking if I love it this much.
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One of my things when I was reading a manuscript is if when I was reading it,
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I think I want to give it to so-and-so.
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I want to give it to so-and-so.
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That was always a really good sign I was on to something.
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You know, it’s those things.
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It’s very mercurial.
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Well, you know, mid-career would be one thing.
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What about end of career?
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Yeah.
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Well, luckily, I’ve got my first book at the end of my career, the end of my life.
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So, you know, the likelihood is it’ll completely bomb.
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It’ll disappear.
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But it won’t matter because I’m not starting a career.
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Well,
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also,
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actually,
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debuts,
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you know,
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when it comes to debuts,
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debuts,
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you know,
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the whole concept around is not ageist at all.
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Actually, I don’t think.
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I think it is.
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Do you think?
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Yeah.
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Well, I tell my students it’s not.
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Yeah.
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There are.
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There are the Tessa Hadley’s and the Mary Wesley’s and so on.
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There is hope everywhere.
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But, you know, I think that this is what people have always loved.
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It’s like I remember Mary Quant when I met with her about models, you know.
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No one wants to look at old women or older women.
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They want to look at young women.
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Well, what the hell?
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I didn’t care.
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I think I will feel like a debut writer no matter what.
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So I don’t know, Henry, if you know this Indian writer called Jeet Thail.
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Have you ever heard of him?
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I have, and I’m trying to think in what context.
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He was a booker shortlisted.
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His first book, it was called Narcopolis.
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I don’t know if it was his first book, but it was Narcopolis.
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Jeet was telling me right now.
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So he’s starting a special imprint with HarperCollins India,
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which is publishing my book of poetry.
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Right.
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I said, Jeet, I do not write poetry.
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He’s like, Buku, you’re a writer.
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What does it matter what form you’re writing?
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I said, well, yeah, that’s how I think.
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It’s just a really short, short story.
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Yeah, well, I mean, it was just straight.
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And I used to write it on top of my photographs.
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It was really just a way of just kind of not having to deal with all the shaking
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and all that stuff that was happening to me in the morning.
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And I know if I go straight to writing in the morning, it...
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They subside.
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So I thought it was a combination of not having enough attention span to write a
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full short story or a novel.
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And I was like, why am I writing poetry?
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I used to love writing poetry when I was in my 20s.
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And I’ve always wanted to be a poet when I went to college.
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But I actually intentionally stopped myself saying that it is a lost path.
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You’re going to make even less money than any writer ever will.
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Just stop writing poetry.
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And I literally, literally, it’s like quitting cigarettes.
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writing poetry.
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So I don’t know, part of me feels like, why am I writing poetry now?
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I thought, A, maybe I’m in love, or B, I just have very short attention span.
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And then I was talking to my favorite writer,
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Alexander Hemon,
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and he just has a book of poems coming out or is out.
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And he said, when he writes poetry, it’s a sure sign of depression.
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I’m like, oh, yeah, you’re right.
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I said, I wrote...
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But we’ll put it another way, you don’t want to become a writer if you want to make money.
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No, of course not.
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It doesn’t really matter what you write.
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No, no.
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I co-wrote a screenplay that premiered at Cannes last year and I have not seen one
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dollar out of it.
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I have to say, when I was an editor and writer, I would say, oh,
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you know, I could earn more at the Sainsbury’s checkout.
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I said, go and do it.
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Go and do it.
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Someone’s asking you to be a writer.
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You know, we’re not on our knees begging you to write.
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You know, it’s like, go and earn a living.
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Yeah, you don’t have to do it.
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You should only do it if you have to do it for yourself.
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There’s absolutely no other point.
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But how lovely about Jeet’s imprint and about your book.
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Did you not know this, Alexandra?
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I did know that something was happening with Jeet because I saw the thing, but I didn’t know.
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No, I didn’t realize it.
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He started an imprint with HarperCollins India called Thail Editions,
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and it’s 20 books in five years.
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And they’re very offbeat books.
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They’re sort of, they’re small books.
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So they’re kind of like little pocketbooks almost.
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But he really wants to do sort of very offbeat books,
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books that are not traditionally published.
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So he started with Adil Jasiwala, who I don’t know if you know who he is.
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He’s a poet.
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Adil Jasiwala, very good Indian poet.
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I’m book number two.
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I have no idea where it should be out.
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Wow, that’s fantastic.
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Should be out any day.
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He wanted to do something with my photographs because he’s a huge fan of my photographs.
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And I’m writing the memoir version of my photographs,
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which I have been since COVID and I haven’t finished it yet.
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I thought, you know, after writing fiction, I thought, oh, memoir will be so easy.
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You know, it’s like an Annie Erno book, you know.
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It’s sort of like actually modeled after that.
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In fact,
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Annie Erno,
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I’ve been wanting to write about my illness since it happened,
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but I never knew how to sort of enter it.
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And then when I read Annie Erno for the first time, which was during COVID,
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Because I used to just blindly buy anything that Fitzgerald’s editions used to publish.
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And the minute I read The Happening, I think it was, I was like, this is it.
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This is the register I needed.
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This is how I needed to write the book.
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I didn’t want something very mushy and emotional.
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I knew that.
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So I was like, how do I write about this without feeling sorry for myself, you know?
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Anyway, so Jeet wanted to do something with my images, but with writing.
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And I said, well, you know, I am writing this memoir.
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And he’s like, can you finish it by August?
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And I was like, I can try, but I’m not sure.
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And then I started panicking because I was like,
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there’s no realistic way I’m finishing this by August because I’ve been trying to
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finish it since COVID.
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And I’m not one of those writers, unlike Henry, I cannot
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I needed to be as good as I wanted to be, even if it takes 20 years.
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And that’s just how everything happens to me 10 years after it should happen to normal people.
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I’ve sort of taken that for granted.
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So then I was like, wait, I’ve been writing one poem every morning just to survive.
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And I sort of write it.
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It’s not for my partner, but I think about my partner when I’m writing it.
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And I started writing it when I moved to Paris two years ago,
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and it was just one poem every day.
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But it came to a point where after three months, there was 100 pages worth of poems.
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And I was like, OK, let’s send this to Jeet.
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I was very embarrassed to send it to Jeet because Jeet is actually one of the best
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poets in India,
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even though he was bookish shortlisted for a novel.
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I think he’s a better poet.
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And I sent it to him and he’s like, this is it.
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And I was like, really?
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Are you sure?
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So I don’t know.
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I don’t know what everyone’s going to think.
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It’s not traditional poetry.
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It’s very scattered.
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It’s more like sort of stray thoughts, a diary kind of thing.
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It’s not formal, formal poetry.
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I look forward to seeing it.
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But your stories were great.
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Thank you.
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I really enjoyed them.
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Alexandra, did you ever get a copy of my book?
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Did they ever send it to you?
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Oh, God, I don’t understand.
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I’ll hold it here again.
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Have a look.
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Oh, lovely.
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Did they really?
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HarperCollins never... That’s lovely.
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The cover’s beautiful.
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The title’s fabulous.
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See, Dia’s cover, Dia Henry was going to be my original editor.
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But she bought the book, but then she left, unfortunately, halfway through.
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And she was going to use one of my images.
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It was her idea for the cover and everything was so much more beautiful.
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Yeah.
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So I hate this cover.
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I feel very detached from the Indian book.
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I have it too.
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I have my last paper copy,
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which I’m sending to a photography friend of mine in Japan that I just made.
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I said, I don’t want it.
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I prefer my US copy because they said I can have whatever cover I want.
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So I said, I want one of those French minimalist covers where it’s just blank.
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It’s like every marketing person’s nightmare, you know.
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But even then, with the white, they put some... Who’s the American publisher?
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They’re a small press called Flowersong Press.
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And they actually, they’re a poetry press.
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And they publish very, very, very good poetry poets, like the Poet Laureates of America.
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And, you know, this Mexican writer, Yuria Alberto Yuria, they publish him.
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In fact, they’re doing a joint thing with him now.
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And they’ve just very recently ventured into prose.
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So I’m probably one of the first cohorts of prose that they published.
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I can’t say they’ve done a very good job.
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They still haven’t sent out press copies to anyone because I just wrote to them and
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they said,
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oh,
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yes,
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Edward’s supposed to do it.
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And because I was going I was like,
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I want some copies to be sent to so and so and so and so and so and so.
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But I
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Alexandra, I’m really upset that Harper Collins didn’t send you a copy.
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This is very odd.
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I’ll have Flowersong Press send you.
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I have to send them a list.
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And you know what they did?
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Okay, so before I started writing this book, Henry, when I knew I was writing it in 2008,
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I knew, all I knew was the first line, which was a dedication line.
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And I knew it was going to be dedicated to my twin.
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And it was going to be called for my twin.
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And that I’ve known this since 2008.
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And HarperCollins forgot all about it.
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They missed it.
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They missed the whole dedication line.
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Yeah, I’m looking at it.
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There’s no dedication.
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No, they missed it.
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They completely missed it.
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I was so horrified.
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I was so beside myself.
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It was the only page I was looking forward to looking at when the book came out.
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Well, the next book.
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no the US edition has it okay sorry yeah of course I’m gonna have to rush because I
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was meant to be somewhere at four so I guess you can edit out this me saying
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goodbye okay yes I will do that so lovely to see you Henry it’s lovely to see you
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Alexandra let’s catch up when you’re less busy when you got your book in I’d love
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to come and chat to you about your teaching and you know it sounds really
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fascinating
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Lovely, really, really lovely.
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So the two of you haven’t talked to each other in a long time?
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No, not for ages.
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Let’s go and have a cup of tea and say, I’d really love to chat to you about that.
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Definitely.
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All right.
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Okay, talk soon.
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All right.
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Bye, Henry.
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Alexandra, are you leaving too, or do you have a few more minutes?
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A few minutes, and then, yeah, I must go because I’m going to go to Marrakesh.
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So my wardrobe.
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it’s kind of well yeah we are we are well my partner’s about to go to morocco too
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he was just telling me yesterday uh we left our dog in morocco and he he got
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poisoned so so what they do because they the the city puts out poison for to
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control the stray animals and my dog must have been chasing a cat and
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ate something poisonous for the cat.
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And suddenly my partner’s brother calls and says he just died overnight,
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like literally two months ago.
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So I just plunged myself into photography, which is all I know how to do during calamity.
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Yeah.
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But yeah, I’m really looking forward to this book coming out.
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They’re now starting to do a lot of publicity on it.
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So I’m very excited.
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I have no idea what people are going to think of it because I have not written in
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this form ever.
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But anyway...
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i’m going to have i’m going to have them send you a book i can’t believe i have to
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keep prodding them all the time i think i even might have told my parents to send
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you a book i think that’s what i have to do now i would love to have one you’ve got
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my address yes i mean you you were one of the first people i i would have wanted my
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book to go to oh well this life isn’t it you know maybe they sent it and it just
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never arrived cheeky has your address no
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Yeah, she does.
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I’ll email you and I’ll get your address.
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Okay.
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Lovely talking to you, Alexandra.
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Bye.
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Bye-bye.
